Christine Jones

Today's guest is someone I've known for over twenty years, and someone who's always stood out. We first worked together at JWT, and even then Christine Jones had a very clear voice. She knew what she thought, she said it, and she didn't wait for permission. Since then she's built an extraordinary career, from global creative leadership roles at Ogilvy and Ridley Scott Creative Group, to now founding her own company SirenXYZ, a female led creative business focused on telling stories for women, by women. But what's interesting about Christine is that she doesn't follow the expected narrative. She has strong views on where we are as an industry, on confidence, on opportunity, and what it really takes for women to succeed. This is a conversation about leadership, resilience, and perspective, and one that might challenge a few assumptions along the way. 

So grab a cuppa tea and join me for a chat with Christine Jones!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Today's guest is someone I've known for over 20 years and someone who has always stood out. We first worked together at JWT and even then Christine Jones had a very clear voice. She knew what she thought, she said it, and she didn't wait for permission. Since then she's built an extraordinary career from global creative leadership roles at Ogilvie, Lowe and Ridley Scott Creative Group, to now founding her own company. Siren, a female-led creative business focused on telling stories for women by women. But what's interesting about Christine is that she doesn't follow the expected narrative. She has strong views on where we are as an industry, on confidence, on opportunity, and what it really takes for women to succeed. This is a conversation about leadership, resilience and perspective, and one that might challenge a few assumptions along the way. So grab a cup of tea and join me for a chat with Christine Jones. Okay, got me? Yeah, got you. Does that does can you hear me alright? Can you hear me fine? Yes, perfect. Yeah, I can hear you fine. Perfect, perfect. So, Christine, if you're ready, I'll introduce you. So Christine Jones, I've known for probably over 20 years actually, because um we worked together when I was producing at JWT and you were an exec creative director there. Um so so we go back quite some time. Um and you know, now you're you've just started this incredible company, um, SIREN. Is it is it SAREN XYZ, or do you just or can we just call it SIREN? We just call it SIREN.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Just call it SIREN. Yeah. There's a lot of siren companies out there, so we had to just put the XYZ in.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Yeah. And I liked it because it sort of gave me a feeling like we do everything, like we everything in the alphabet and and all the way to XYZ. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

I did originally want it to have XXY. Right. So that's because it was more female, but that just takes you down the porn route. Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

We had to kill that one off. And why not? And why not? Um, and we're going to talk about sirens, but um, yeah, I mean, I just when I when I first met you when I was at JWT, you know, there were very few female creative directors at your level. Um, and and what really stood out was the fact that you you seemed so confident and so fearless, and sort of, you know, it was always um, you know, you you really stood out, and and even at that stage, and um, and you've just had this incredible career. You sort of really defined, you know, a path forward which doesn't necessarily take the traditional route. Um, and and I just love to talk about that a little bit. I mean, you know, the fact that that you survived 20 years ago in a very, very male um And I think that's how I feel that I survived.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

You know, it's really lovely of you to say you've had this great career, but I don't think I've ever stopped to think I've had a great career. I think I just feel I've survived every step of the way, and in the meantime, just really focused on doing great work.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

And just getting through 20 years.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Exactly. And you have done great work. I mean, going back, for instance, to JWT, you know, what sort of accounts were you working on then? Were you working on all the sort of like the traditional female type of accounts?

SPEAKER_00 3:36

We were working on Purcil and Unilever. You know, I was working with a fantastic writer, Meg Rossoff, um, who eventually left and went on to write a lot of books and had Hollywood films made from her books. And the pair of us were um Meg slightly older, but we were sort of of an age of women where, oh well, they'll do Purcell. Yeah. Um, and so we did do Purcell and we did Purcil really well. And I think there was a time when we were at JWT where um we did 30 commercials in one year, right? Wow. And and that just doesn't happen anymore. Yeah, yeah. So our workload was big. Uh we were running personal, we were running other bits and brands and and pictures and different things. But yeah, that was that was the main focus. And I don't know whether it, you know, deep down was it because we were women? I don't know, probably. Um but we had fun while we did it. Um and she was a she was a great partner. And that was probably the first time I'd worked with a woman. Right, right. Because all my my creative partners had been male before then.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Right, yes, they often used to do that, didn't they? They'd pair a woman with a man and uh Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But but um maybe to balance it out as such. Yes, exactly, exactly. Um but then never balanced. You did you did win so many awards as a creative director. Was that I I know you were working on Dove, was it was it at Ogilvie? Where where did you really sort of get the recognition and the confidence that you were sort of like doing really well?

SPEAKER_00 5:11

So I started my career at Lagos Delaney, and I didn't realise so Lagos Delaney all those years ago were like the hot shop in London. You know, you could call them the the mother, the the drogo five, whatever they were, they were the thing. But when you come down from college, you you sort of know agencies, but we didn't know that them and BBH were the were the top agencies, and in that first year I got I think it was 52 entries into DAD. Wow, I didn't know that. That's incredible, yeah. And you know, Lagos, I think, went on to win pencils, yellows, goals, whatever that year. Um and so I'd always been taught to just look after craft and to do good work. So it's in terms of awards give me the recognition to what success is, it's never what I look for for recognition of success, it's always about the last piece of work that I like or that I'm proud of. And so the the the the Delaney's you know, Tim and Steve, they just instilled about doing good work and craft. And so when I'd and I'd won a uh I won a can gold uh a G GGT, and that was when can wasn't really important in London, you know, it was just one of those places that you went to, and I don't think the awards itself was really recognised until a couple of years later, and um so in the 90s I won a a Can Gold um and had to fly out there to pick it up because no one from London was going. Oh, really? Oh gosh, yeah. Um, and so then when Dove came along and I had an amazing um client, I had two great clients. One was um Fernando Machado, who went on to to be one of the biggest CMOs in the world, and he always said to me, You get me 98% greens in Milwood Brown, and I'll give you money to be really creative. And so the success of the business needed to happen, but he he wasn't flipping with it, and he gave us a load of money to go and look at how we could be really creative with Dove. And that's when the awards kicked in big time. That's when you know Dove and Ogilvy, uh, you know, the highest, most awarded agency uh that year a can. The brand had done amazingly well. So, you know, I always say it takes a team of about five to ten people to win a can gold. It's not about one creative, um, and that really does depend on the client. So that's how it happened. Um, but to this day, I don't really think about awards. I don't go into doing creative work thinking I'm gonna win an award. I just want to do a great idea.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Yeah, no, absolutely. Was there a time when you sort of really felt um frustrated with working on very sort of female uh focused products? Or or because you had done so well with Dove, was that not something that you even thought about?

SPEAKER_00 8:20

I think what I started to realize was as a woman working for the likes of Dove and understanding the issues that women were still facing, and that nothing had really changed was frustration, frustrating, but also motivating. Right. So that's that's what really made me go and find the stories. That's what made us all go and figure out how we could talk about, you know, and real beauty is still even more relevant today, especially with technology and everything that's going on in terms of the skincare world, which I think is fascinating, you know. And I still think there's there's room for conversation about what real beauty is even now, um, as the younger generation are all getting Botox earlier and and uh setting their own standards of beauty. I don't think it's the media anymore. I think people are taking it into their own hands. So, but that was the one thing that I started to understand. And then as you move on to other products, um, whether it's uh looking at AMG and Mercedes and working on cars, you know, you understand the the the marketing team were very much female, um, but the rest of the world in that category isn't. Um, and so you know, when you're asked to look at a female audience within those categories and you start to see what isn't being addressed, not that it's a problem because they're still selling cars, or you know, um I've got not, you know, of course, men buy cars and women are the purchase decision makers, but men buy cars. But it was just to um really make a difference. Yeah, yeah. That's what that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to do work that was starting to make a difference, or to be heard, or to have a point of view that someone else recognized.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

And and looking for sort of, I mean, you talk about stories, and and it feels like looking for authentic stories has always been very, very important to you. Was it important when you were a creative director to find female directors to tell these stories, or was, or were you really just looking for the very best person that you felt could could craft the spot for you?

SPEAKER_00 10:38

So for many years there's been a lack of female director talent or female lot of producers. Um I always felt intimidated on set because there was very few women on set. You know, when you look at the crew and everything else. So now there are more female directors, and that's great. Yeah. And with Siren, my goal is to always put the female first, and that's not that I'm I've got a problem with men, I want the best person for the job, absolutely. Yeah, but my instinct will now be to look for a female who's the best at that job. And if that female does that job well, the female gets the job. Right. If there isn't a woman who does who can do the job, then a guy will get the job, the best person will get the job. Um so it was it was a real learner curve. I think that's what made me um I don't want to say harder as a person, but it made me more resilient. Right. Was every time you would turn up in these places, and more often than not, other than the producer, there'd only been me who's the female, and you you know, sometimes it's intimidating on shoots anyway, because you've got timelines and you've got to make decisions. But to then have a whole male crew and everyone sit there looking at you and tuting because you weren't really sure whether you should go right or left, um, was really intimidating. Yeah. And so therefore I built up a barrier. Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

I mean, you have to have tremendous confidence, don't you? I would imagine, as a sort of a female creative director. Um and you always came across as being incredibly confident in yourself. Um, maybe you did, as you say, you built this barrier, and um, but and over the years, because you've had so much experience, haven't you? I mean, as well as agencies, and and before you built up Siren, you know, you were doing some incredible work, some some working with brands, working with very, very big companies, you know, one of them obviously being, you know, RSA, which is which is well renowned and and has got such an incredible reputation. So um can you talk a little bit about how was it a a decision, a conscious decision to move from agency into into brands, or did it just happen, was it just an opportunity that came?

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Yeah, I think I've never really looked and gone, oh, I want to go there or I want to go there in my career. Everything's sort of evolved, and I also I I'm a firm believer of the people you meet um impact your career along the way. Like I'm a big advocate of that. And obviously, I'd done Dove, and one of the things I analyzed with Dove was what had worked in the main campaign, the original campaign, and what wasn't working at the time when I took over a C D. And so I went back to Rankin and said, look, let's let's bring this back, let's bring the real women back in a real way, in an interesting way. So I met Rankin that way, and we'd stayed in touch for about 10 years after that first meeting. And so that evolved where he asked me to come in and look at what he was doing and set up a creative division. I knew nothing really about the fashion world, and you know, I'd worked with a variety of great photographers, so it wasn't as if it was specifically him that I was going for. But I saw a great challenge in that he had a good group of mainly women in his team. They were all young, good and bad, uh as a as a benefit to that. And um, so I went in and became the ECD and and we built up a whole department and division.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Right. And he's he's very entrepreneurial, isn't he? I've worked with ranking, and I would I would say that he's very entrepreneurial and looking for you know what's happening in the world. He's always thinking ahead.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Yeah, yeah, always, always thinking ahead, um, always up with the trends and culture and conversations.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

So that was really great because then behind that was a great bunch of females who were insight-driven creatives and really smart. Yeah. Um, but they hadn't been um trained in a way to use that and to bring their knowledge and to put it together with brands and then do interesting work. They'd done more editorial, or it was just arranged around his fashion suit. So so it evolved into something much more dynamic, right? Um, which was great. And so that was the first time that I properly actually just assessed a department and a business, as opposed to it being just a creative entity. Um, and from there I met there was a guy called Richard Nichols, Nicholson, he was freelance finance director at the time, and I met him there. And obviously, he saw the numbers and what I was achieving at Rankin, and he ended up leaving and he went to RSA and we had a coffee. And he said, Why don't you come in and do the same? Um, and I'd given Luke his very first commercial all those years ago. So, so Luke Scott and I had worked together um and had a great time in South Africa doing it doing an amazing shoot. It was a night shoot, and so we spent all day sunbathing and tour in South Africa and then just shot at night. It was amazing. Perfect. Um, and he'd said, you know, let's let's have a chat. We had a chat and he asked me to look at this the state of where the world is, how the audiences were watching film, looking at platforms like Netflix, and also looking at advertising. And you know, I've got three grown-up kids, Sarah, and they were not watching advertising. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you know, and so I'd sort of done a bit of research, got a team together, went back in and presented to Luke my findings and what I thought was happening, and he said, come in. Um, but I'm the I'm the sort of person who will watch a film. But if you were to ask me who directed it, who the main cast were, do you remember the line in this film? I'm not that type of person. So I had to re-evaluate and look at my references so that when Luke and I would chat, we could use the same analogy of what we wanted out of the work. Um so I had to go and do a whole deep dive on lots of films, which was great. Um, but but then I I was given a PL. So I was given the full PL that I had to develop on my own. Um and so learning about profit and loss, looking at your overheads, looking at what you're bringing into your business, looking at the percentages and the margins that you had. Um, I'd never really had to do that before because there was always a CEO. Yeah, and then via someone else to do that. Whereas this time there wasn't, it was me literally. My success or failure was me making money. Gosh. Um so that was probably one of the biggest learning curves of my whole career.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Yeah, I can imagine.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

And it was great, and I think I've always been a relationship person. So I'm still in touch with my clients from years ago, they're friends. Um I always meet my clients, and I knew I I had that type of relationship, I knew I had that personality to bond and build the the friendships and trust there. But once I learned the business side, I suddenly went, okay, you don't need to be doing this for anyone else anymore. You can do it yourself, yes. Um you know, and it's it's taken a long time in my career to to put the two together. But I'm glad it happened because otherwise I'd just be doing an ECD role in an agency, being frustrated.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Yeah. Um but you've worked for such amazing companies, and what a great I it feels like this is the perfect time, doesn't it? There's there just feels with so much going on in the world and and the changes that are happening. It feels like this is your time. This is the time for for siren. Um, and and I'd love to hear, you know, you've obviously seen the inside, the inside workings of of companies, and what works, what doesn't work, and and that business sense that you've now got as well as you know, incredible creativity. So so with all of those things put together, tell us tell us about Siren and what your vision is for the company.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

So a few things happened at once. I'd had a couple of brands come to me and wanted to really focus on women. Um, AMG were doing a trip away with some of the most um influential, successful women in the world for four days in the south of France. And so we put together a female team that went out there because the, you know, it was all women from their side and only women at this four-day event with Barbara Sturm and a variety of different people. So I felt that to mingle in and not be seen would be best to have all female team. So that was really great because there are great women out there, right? There are great editors, there are great directors, there are great producers, the team, and I think what happens is when women get together, they work very differently. There's a sort of sisterhood and understanding that the there's a calmness that I felt really worked, and it was very smooth. Um and I love that. And I was like, okay, and then another branded ask me, who was very women focused, 98% of their business, Avon, is women and reps, and they wanted a female point of view um on their reps. So we we did a whole storyline, and um that that had started to happen. And I had lunch with two great creatives, one was a director, Bexy Cameron, another one is a great writer, editorial writer, Ellie Jackson, and they she has created a magazine called The Movement Movement, which is looking at women in sport, right? Um, and we'd gone for lunch one day, and they were sitting there saying how difficult it was in the industry to pick up. And I uh and I'd had this sort of stuff going on in the background with with um my clients. I was at the stage of leaving RSA, and I thought, hold on a minute, there's great women out there. Why don't I set something up? Right? Because yes, there are great men out there as well, and I've worked with the most amazing men, but there needs to be more women in this industry, there needs to be more of a voice, and uh there needs to be more equality um in a sense. So Siren was formed on a whim, just listening to all the problems that was going on, to what clients were asking, to what great creatives were wanting. And so I set it up. And I think one of the things that I've always been frustrated with in my career is. I've always, always made someone else a lot of money. Right. Right. And very rarely have I been rewarded for it. You get the carrot dangled in front of you, they all make promises, and then suddenly they, you know, move the money around. I knew exactly what I was making in my departments. And yet suddenly there was never enough money to give my team a bonus or to give anyone a pay rise. And that was really, really disheartening and frustrating. Even, you know, in the last three to five years, I wish the industry had changed, but it hadn't. And so I have a policy where at CIREM, once all the company bills are paid, once the corporation tax is done, once the overheads are done, whatever is left in the pot is split equally. So if I get five pounds, everyone gets five pounds. If I get 50,000, everyone gets 50,000. Um I don't want to be in a situation that I was in in the disappointment of being successful but never being rewarded, being given all the promises but never being rewarded. So I want to give back. Right, right. Give back to those women properly. Um, and if it doesn't succeed, then fine, it doesn't succeed.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

I mean, what an incredible incentive to get incredible women to work with you, you know, to really work towards something special because And they they deserve it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel particularly these days, it's so hard to feel loyalty towards companies because you know, one minute you can be with them and you work day and night and 24-7, and then the next minute you can be sort of thrown away, you know, because either you're too expensive or or for whatever reason. So um, so that's that's incredible. Um, it's interesting that you're talking about the sisterhood because I've just recently I guess really felt that as a woman as well. Whereas before, I I guess if I'm really honest about it, I always felt like um, you know, I was a woman that really had to fight to get on in the business, and so felt very isolated in in many respects. And I think that something is really shifting now where we're all holding each other up, and and I really I love that. Um, I'm wondering if I mean, do you think that there was a specific time when that happened? Do you think Me Too helped or harmed um women in in that respect?

SPEAKER_00 24:46

So I think for me, I think it's an era of growing up, right? You know, if I if I was to go back to my 20s now, and I still think women in their 20s and 30s are probably going through exactly how we felt and going through it. I think it's about an age thing and maturity and life and education. And then I think things happen like me too in our era. But personally, I don't think it helped us. Um I think it was an amazing platform to raise the issue. Um, but I think what happened is within 12 to 18 months the testosterone and the manhood came back fighting. And I think that's hindered us as women. Um whether I don't think it was meant to harm anything, but I just feel that's the behavior, you know. You look at Manosphere, Andrew Tates, you look at the guys, they're all coming out kicking and screaming. Right, right. Um so you know, in hindsight, I'm not sure it did help as much as it raised the profile, you know. Um, but I do think we don't need to talk about the different movements. I think women are so great at the minute. You know, I there's an amazing book by Hans Rosling called Factfulness, and he talks about we've never been in a better position as women than we are we are today. Um, yes, takeaway, you know, when things like Syria or Iran or things happen, that takes us back a little bit. But in terms of education, in terms of careers, in terms of our finances, you know, there's more women who are financially independent than ever. You know, I think that's going to affect marriage and relationships because uh we need to have a guy to financially provide for us while we are the home owners or the bread makers, that's that's all changing. So I think women are in a really much stronger position than we've ever been in. And so therefore, I don't think we need to go against men to do that. I think we just need to shout about how great we are. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And keep to the positive.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Yeah, because w women do earn a lot of money. And I mean, for marketers, they have to understand that, you know, they have to reach out to to women and tell the stories that that women are gonna be interested in. Um so yeah, I mean, I I love that that you're saying it's not men against women. We're not trying to alienate men in any sense, you know. I love working with men and and a lot of great male friends, so um, so I think that is important, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Um it's vital because uh it's not a them and us situation, it's just uh right now it should just be us. Yeah, yeah. You know, like I think there are some amazingly dynamic, smart women out there, and we don't need to reflect back or use someone else's platform to talk about ourselves, we should just be doing it, and I think that's the way conversation will change, that's the way generations, you know. My I've got two daughters, they don't even question what we question, they just go out there and have a point of view and do their thing, but they do it in a very strong feminine way, whereas, you know, I think my generation, there was a set role to what we had in our careers or our life and whatever. It's very different now, yeah. And I take my hat off to them, you know, and if they can keep talking positively about themselves, then I think things will change. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Absolutely changing. Yep, yeah. And tell me about the work. So the work that that that Saren um is doing, because you know, you're no longer talking about the 30-second ad, and I know that that probably hasn't been talked about for some time anyway, but but tell us where you're sort of seeing the future in terms of of the work that you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

I think the the great thing for me being at Ridley's was understanding branded entertainment and learning about that, whether it was scripted, unscripted, and how brands were getting into films, not just as product placements, but you know, once you knew a storyline, how you could evolve that storyline and develop it. And for us, the the first one of my learning was when Ridley was doing House of Gucci, and so we knew the storyline, and Diaggio as a brand had already paid to have the product in there, and for Lady Garga to say, I'll I'll have a Tankare Martini with a twist, which you know, in real life she didn't say, but it was there, and then they came to us to say, Look, can we evolve this story into a campaign and content? So that was the first sort of slight reiteration, even though in the end it ended up being a 30 and a 60 and whatever, they wanted traditional formats. But what's evolved since then is things like micro dramas, right? And they are 60 to three minutes long, and I think the short form film is gonna really strong at the minute in lots of ways, in terms of audiences and what they're watching and how you tell stories. So I think there is this now amazing future of crossover where my kids don't look at adverts, but they do listen to stories and they do watch stories in other formats and other ways, and microdramas is one of them. So we're currently working with a brand on doing a couple of pilot micro drama episodes. And for example, this brand talks about prices to go traveling, and they talk about um the time that it takes to get there and all this sort of thing. But what they don't show is their product, they don't show the train, right? They show everything else, they show getting to Paris, they show the people happy in their cars, they don't show the train. And I said, Well, what if we took this micro drama and put it just all on the train? So that the experience was the brand experience, but the storyline was just a normal TV drama, right? Um, and they went, that's great, and also you don't have to pay half a million pounds for this stuff. Yeah, you know, it's not taken us three days to do, it's taken one day, two episodes, two minutes, at a much more reduced cost. And you know, then they work with the media department to figure out how they can get this out there as this format. Um, and then you're done. And so that's where I think it's going. Right, right, right. I think the world is shifting. Stories will always be important, they're always the key thing for our engagement, and that will never change, but it's how we tell them. Um, and I think there is a big difference between an agency doing a 60 to 90 second epic commercial that they think is a storyline to actually writing a drama storyline, which is very different.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Yeah, yeah. And are you doing it soup to nuts? So you're working with the brand, you're developing the idea, you're coming up with a script, and then you're actually filming it, executing it all yourself, editing it, soup to nuts. That's that's fantastic. Fantastic. And are you sh are you tending to shoot it vertically or are you you are okay? We're going vertical.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Vertical. This format microdramas is vertical. Right. It's it's where everything is going, so yeah, we're doing it vertically. Um, and you know, I've got an amazing client who she's like, let's go for it. It's not really much risk because financially it's not going to cost too much to do, but it will evolve the brand. And and you know, I've brought on board proper scripted drama writers. Yeah. I haven't brought just advertising writers because they write very differently. Yeah, different skills that's really, really key. Yeah, interesting. It's the one thing I learned at Ridley's, you know, as a creative, and I've been in the industry a long time, and you know, we've written some amazing things. And you go, you walk in going, well, you know, it's only it's only a page and a half. We can write that. Yeah. Um, you know, we can do a first draft of a docuseries, and I mean, we all know how to write, don't we? And actually, no, we don't. It's very different skill set.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Yeah. Um, and so but working, but you working alongside feels like the perfect partnership because you understand, you recognize really, really good stories. And so then if you work with somebody who can execute and write the stories, that seems like the perfect partnership.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, fingers crossed, these microdramas that we're doing now are the thing I'm most excited about because I've left a script writer to go away and write what they feel are cliffhangers properly for a storyline to create engagement, and then I've worked to fit it in commercially with a brand. And I've you you know, and I think that's what that's what we're um siren and ri is really good at. We've got the background to understand how brands speak and what they look for commercially and what they need for their business, right? It's not just about I've had so many production companies say, Oh, we've got this really great um script, and let's show you our slate. And we see the slate, and it's you know, they are great scripts, but maybe 10% can fit into brands. Yeah. That brands would associate themselves with. And so then it becomes like, well, this is great, and a brand could fit into this, but adapt it slightly, you know, and some directors will adapt it and some just won't. And then you go, well, your baby's not going to get made. Yeah, it's gonna sit there as a script format forever. How many people have written amazing novels that we don't know about?

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

You know, it's it's commercialising and understanding the storylines that these directors have to fit a brand because a brand these days, whether it's a hundred grand or a million or ten million, whatever amount they give you, they want their piece of flesh. Yeah, yeah. Right? This isn't a freebie, guys, anymore. You know, in the 90s, we probably could have got away with it, not anymore. So you have to then say to a brand, we want to keep this director's storyline true, it fits your brand, and they go, Okay, fine. However, what we're gonna give you back is a re-edited version of that film that you can use across all your platforms. Yeah. So, in a way, if they give a hundred grand, they've got a lot of content different brands. Yes, no, absolutely. And then they're associated with a film and talent, and then that gets them new QDOS and recognition with audiences, but also in film festivals. Yeah, and something that kids actually want to watch.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the whole the whole business is changing, isn't it? Because if you think about it, the the marketing departments are going to have to change a little bit to to work and understand this sort of new marketing. And also directors are gonna have to change in the way that they work because it's no longer about, you know, the director is the sort of, you know, the the somebody who's put on the king and put on a pedestal. Um so I think it's really, really interesting times. It really is. And I think it's less about the fear of AI taking over, it's more about just the industry is changing, full stop. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

And I think look at it and learn the system. Yeah, the new system, and you will succeed.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Yeah, and be excited about it because you know, we've been doing 30-second ads forever, and a lot of the time not with great stories, you know, and actually to be able to embrace real authentic storytelling that somebody will want to sit and watch is probably one of the most exciting things that could happen.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Yeah. I mean, I had a lovely young director, Luna, who had this idea, she was frustrated with dating gaps, and she'd written this little film and it was great. I was like, This is great. And I said, How much do you need? And she was like, Oh, you know, as women do. She's like, Oh, you know, well, you know, I need 10 grand. Like, well, I almost like laughed. Yeah. Right? Because this is a great idea, and this actually deserves 20 grand put into it. But the fact that she needed 10 grand was like, okay, we have to find a way to do this. Yeah. Now, sometimes that budget is too small for clients, bizarrely. They don't sign off 10 grand or they won't sign anything off, you know, unless it's 50 plus. But yeah, I think there are so many great stories out there that can be told that aren't costing, you know. I've done a Christmas campaign recently, and that was 1.4 million. You know, and I'm sure it's very successful for them over that seasonal period, but when you look at what you could put do with a film for 1.4 million, and how many episodes or you could get in a small micro drama for that and keep it consistent, that's 20 to 30 episodes. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

So I think it is changing.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Well, you you you open the company in January, and I almost feel like I'd love to book you for another put podcast in January 2027 to see to see how you progress. But um, before before we go, um, you know, one of the questions that I often ask is just, you know, what is one of the challenges that you face that you feel has made you a stronger person? And I wonder if there is anything, um, I'm sure you've had a lot of challenges, but if there is anything in particular in either your personal or business life that you'd be prepared to share?

SPEAKER_00 38:45

So, you know, you know, you opened the conversation with me being confident, straightforward, fearless. Um, and I think I built up that barrier because of lots of things that happened in my life. But over COVID, something personal happened in my life where um one of my children was in New York, and you know, we're a liberal family, we're all very open, they're all well educated. And unfortunately, while she was in New York and we were in lockdown, she got recruited into a cult. Um, which absolutely threw me for six. Yeah. Because it was the fear of not understanding cults, it was the fear of religion, it was um it was the screaming and shouting, it was the lack of control. I couldn't get to her. I ended up having to go to Dubai for 14 days to be able to get into New York so I could get to her. Um, and it was very isolating and it was very lonely and very difficult.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

Oh, I can imagine. How old was she at this time?

SPEAKER_00 39:53

She was 19. Right. So still so young. Young, but you know, on the side of legal to make her own decisions, which is what they do. Yeah. That's how cults work. They work with all in the just in the legal system. Yeah. Um but what it set into me was um a survival mechanism and how to never give in. Right. Um, and she's still in this organization. Um, she's now married, she has a baby. Um, I was I spoke to specialists, I spoke to everybody. Yeah, yeah. I I went and learned so much about cults and cult behavior. I learned about neuroscience. I am the type of person that as soon as I don't know something, I will go away and research it. Yeah. And so this has been a five-year research for me. And one thing I've learned is never to give up. Yeah. Ever, ever give up. Doesn't matter how many doors close on you, just don't give up. And so my resilience and also my um patience. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I I was never a patient person. I always wanted that things done and answers quickly and whatever. You know what it was like. Yeah. Um, and so I've had to learn to be much more patient and just observe before I make a decision or an action.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Yeah. Um, and I guess not seeing things in black and white, like you know, trying to see it perhaps from her point of view. And I'm just wondering how your relationship is with her. Have you have you accepted every day? Right. So you've accepted her decision.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Or have you I wouldn't say I've accepted the decision. I understand the decision better. Um, you know, I still say to her, you're in a cult. Yeah. You know, she winces a little bit and then we move on and don't talk about it. So I've I've you know, people tell you at first, don't say that, don't say that. Well, I'd said it. And so I couldn't go back. And at first they sort of tell you you're frightened to say things. Well, being frightened to say something didn't doesn't do me any good, doesn't do anyone any good, right? I'd rather say the wrong thing and correct it than not say anything at all. And so um the thing I've learned is the truth is always the best policy, right? Right. Whether I had fear of losing my daughter or not, I had to say the truth because otherwise, what was my relationship with my daughter? What would it be? Yeah, you know, and I didn't want a relationship on lies and a relationship that was only one-sided, which is her side. Um and so that has been probably the biggest and still the ongoing biggest thing in my life. And I think it can either destroy you or it makes you stronger. And I've seen parents be destroyed by this. Yeah. Um I refuse to give in. I will never give up. Absolutely never give up. And that might not be what I want from this might not be what I get. You know, I want my daughter home, I want her to live a normal life, I want it to be like it was before. That's likely never to happen. But what I know I can't live with it is someone else having control of her and not having a relationship with her. Right, right. That's worse. So I'd rather have lost her completely than had that. And so when I come to that conclusion, it all became better. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

For both of us. Gosh, I mean you're giving me shivers. You really are, Christine. And just knowing you and and sort of just the way that you apply that strength and that resilience to your business as well, it's that I'm never gonna give up attitude that has sort of got you with. Where you are today, and that is I mean, I'm so proud to have you as a guest, and thank you so much for joining me. And and I'm so happy to reconnect with you as well after all you know 20 years.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

So I am so happy, and thank you so much for letting me talk like this. Yes, it's it's normally it's about the work or about business, but when it's about you, you have to really look at yourself and go wow.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

Yes, and thank you so much for for being so authentic and and being so honest, because that's really what I'm trying to do with this podcast is open up a platform for women to honestly talk about you know their life and and their struggles and and and also to celebrate, as you say, the incredible, incredible things that that so many women are doing and will continue to do.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

Absolutely, yeah. You too.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Yeah, thank you. You're amazing. Uh, thank you. That's always nice to hear, isn't it? Yeah, yes, true though. Hey. All right, well, um okay. Well, we've got a meetup for coffee.

unknown 45:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

Let's get it in for next week. Let's get it in, yes. Or maybe the following week. Next week's my birthday. My birthday, so maybe the following week. All right, well, listen, have a great birthday. Yes, thanks again. Okay, all right, all right, speak to you soon. Bye, bye, Christine. That was an incredible conversation, and thank you so so much for your honesty and your vulnerability and your authenticity and just being you. I really, really enjoyed it and uh could have gone on forever chatting about life and and all the incredible work that you've done. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow Standing Out, Standing Strong wherever you get your podcast. A quick review or a share with a friend really helps us grow. Until next time, bye for now.